Darkwind Market System

Last update:  28 MAR 2005

"Economy related change" -James Fri Jan 14 2005 22:22

I want to let everyone know that I've added something new to the MUD today.  This is an addition that is integral to some changes that will be going on when the new economy code goes in. Heck, this IS part of the new economy.

Anyway, what I've done is put in the Darkwind Market system.

What is the market?
The market is simply a large player->player shop that provides another method for players to sell items to each other besides auction. Auction will still be around, the market will exist alongside it.

How does the market work?
There are two types of market commands: commands that can be used anywhere in the MUD, and commands that can only be used in certain rooms in the cities across the MUD.

All MUD-wide commands can be listed by typing 'marketcmds'. These commands include the following:

o marketlist: show all items currently being sold in the market
o marketshow <#>: see a particular item from marketlist up close
o marketbuy <#>: buy an item from the market, uses money on-hand
o marketmylist: show items that you have listed for sale at the market
o marketmysales: show what items other players have bought from you

The commands that can only be used in the market rooms are:

o marketsell: place an item for sell in the market
o marketremove: remove an item from the market

Wait? I can buy items anywhere in the game?
Basically, yeah. From any room you could normal bid on an auction from. This currently means any room that you can teleport in/out of.

Yes, I know it doesn't make sense, but neither does auction. It's called:  making the game more fun, and not caring if it's realistic or not.

How does money transfer work?
Well, you pay for items from money on-hand, and that money is directly transfered to the bank of the selling player (even if not logged on).  Easy, simple.

Anything else?
There are a few limitations. The min. listing price is 500, and the max listing price is 99,999. Likewise, you can't buy your own items, and need to return to a market room to remove the items if you want them back. In other words, no magically teleporting your equipment around the game. Also, you can't list drinks/meals.

The "market rooms" are currently located out new exits from the normal shops in every city. These might be moved later, but
that's where they are for now.

Also, this is pretty straightfoward. If there's something you don't understand, ask another player first before asking a wizard. I've already answered so many questions about this to so many people that I bet there's at least 20 people on Darkwind who have the answer to your question.

How does this relate to the economy?
Once the new economy code goes in, the main shops in Darkwind will no longer sell items to players. All items sold to the main shops will automatically be converted into material that other businesses use.

This fact, of course, sucks for players that want to buy equipment at the store. This is why the market system exists, to allow players to list items that other players might be interested in at the market, rather than selling it to the main shops.

So, crap that players don't ever buy (gems, crappy weapons/armor, etc) should be sold to the main shops. Stuff that players regularly buy, such as good weapons and armors, should probably be sold at the market.  Changes are pretty good you can find another willing to pay more for a good piece of equipment than Taylor will.

Anyway, enjoy.


"General shop update" -James Wed Jan 19 2005 21:45

What has changed?
There have been two changes to the general shops on Darkwind, including themain shops as well as the jewellers. These two changes are:

o The selling price of items has been altered. The new pricing curve is very sensitive to CHR. Players who have really high CHR will sell for more than players with low CHR. While this was true in the past, the difference between maximum selling price and minimum selling price was small. Now, there is a larger range, and you will be significantly punished/rewarded depending upon your CHR.

o The general shops will no longer sell items. Players should use auctions and the market system to engage in player->player trade. Items formerly listed in shops by the default, such as torches, will be moved either to the market or to speciality shops in the various cities (eg. armory).

Can you talk more about the pricing curve change?
The new pricing curve is based on two factors:
- Charisma Index (CHR - LEVEL)
- Absolute CHR
The primary factor is your Charisma Index, and therefore players with CHR above their level will make more money than people with CHR below or equal to their level.

However, Absolute CHR is a secondary factor, particularly at high levels. Simply put, a level 50 with 20 CHR and a level 90 with 60 CHR both have a Charisma Index of -30, however the level 90 will sell for more than the level 50 simply because 60 CHR is more noteworthy than 20 CHR.

Alright. So, why these changes?
Shops no longer sell items for reasons that were briefly mentioned in my announcement about the new market system. 90% of all items sold to the general shops were never purchased by players, instead just sitting around in the shop collecting dust. So, shops no longer keep items around. Instead, shops immediately covert all items sold into a generic material which is resold to player-owned businesses. Currently, no business buys material, but the new businesses in the future will. This helps Taylor and the other general shops not lose so much money each boot. After all, Taylor has a family to feed too, and having a shop that only buys and never sells wasn't really keeping food on the table.

The pricing change is simply something that has been a long time coming. When the new combat system went in a year ago, it was desired that all player stats have an important purpose. Of the six stats, CHR was the only one that wasn't given importance through combat. Instead, it was decided that CHR would become even more important to making cash here on Darkwind. So, you know can decide to keep your CHR balanced with other stats and make reasonable money, skew your CHR greatly and become filthy rich, or neglect your CHR and be strong in combat but dirt poor.


"old system" -Cyberk Thu Jan 20 2005 22:05

Granted I haven't spent much time using it, but I find the market system to complete wasteful. You spend 3 hours looking for the item you want, thats fairly priced and seeing the same item on there 900 times at a different price each time... Maybe sort the list or give the option to sort it by price so we can find the cheapest first..
Also I'm not found of paying someone 30k for a piece of eq I used to be able to buy at taylor's for 1k, just because the first person to place that item for sale sets the mark... Example: someone gets the first chainmail shirt of boot and puts it up for sale for 100k and everyone from there on out expects to get that much for their shirts as well...
It just doesn't seem like it'll work, I mean as of right now I see about 40-50 items that aren't even close to being worth what people are asking for them, not only that they are useless items.
This to me, encourages people to load the market up with a bunch of crap, so limit what kind of items can be put on the market. Such as certain flowers from certain areas that have no purpose and are worth less then 500 coins... Just a thought

"new system" -Cyberk Thu Jan 20 23:15

Another disadvantage to this new system is if someone by accident sells an item to taylor they cannot buy it back for an excessively higher price like they used to be able to. SO in short sell something by mistake and you're screwed.

"RE: old system" -Colin Thu Jan 20 2005 23:17

umm about the looking thru the same item..if you are looking for a particular item ex. hardened leather jerkin..you type marketlist jerkin..and it will bring up all of the jerkins etc...and yes..IMO ppl will overprice..i mean..we ARE trying to make money and its more of a supply and
demand thing..if you cant get that item and you want it then the ppl are gonna charge high for it..i mean i used to pay 20k for a set of hardened leather leggings and the jerkin..now its 20k per..i may think that sucks but...ppl need to make money and if i had enough excess money taht i wasnt gonna do anything with i would probably buy them b/c i DO need them..but..maybe thats just me.

"economy" -Redbear Fri Jan 21 02:33

If items are in demand and highly priced, then more people will get them and sell them. This will drop the price and create a competitive bidding market for needed items. Sure, this may take a bit to sort itself out but in the end it will probably work out a lot better for players and is certainly more interesting than buying crap from the shop. I say way to go James, anything to make the game more interesting is welcome in my book


"Market System" -Livius Fri Jan 21 2005 03:10

Hi Folks,

The Market System is a fine piece of work -- thanks, James! -- and in the LONGTERM, it's going to improve as players get used to it. But I fully agree with Cyberk on this point:

> I'm not fond of paying someone 30k for a piece of eq I used to be
> able to buy at taylor's for 1k, just because the first person to
> place that item for sale sets the mark...
> I see about 40-50 items that aren't even close to being worth what
> people are asking for them

We can sum that up in just one word: GREED. That's all it is. Just someone trying to get more than they deserve for something. This is a natural side effect of capitalism.

Thankfully, there is another, more positive, side effect of capitalism:  supply and demand. Redbear is quite right:

> If items are in demand and highly priced, then more people will
> get them and sell them. This will drop the price and create a
> competitive bidding market for needed items. Sure, this may take
> a bit to sort itself out but in the end it will probably work out...

That's why I say that, in the LONGTERM, the problem will go away.  Because when I see this kind of silliness today on "marketlist"...

Executing "marketlist jerkin"...

Num. Name Price Tax Total
101) A hardened leather jerkin [1] 35000 3500 38500
117) A hardened leather jerkin [2] 25000 2500 27500

Executing "marketlist leggings"...

Num. Name Price Tax Total
36) a pair of chain leggings [1] 500 50 550
102) A hardened pair of leather leggings [1] 35000 3500 38500
118) A hardened pair of leather leggings [2] 25000 2500 27500


...I can only shake my head, chuckle, and wonder about how dumb the seller thinks I really am. :-D

But none of us are "helpless" here. We are something very critical to this process: we are the CONSUMERS. We vote with our coins. We don't HAVE to accept this -- just don't buy it! Sure, we'd rather use this kind of good gear -- but at these prices, I'll just use the "normal jerkin" for a while, get a psi to light/hard it, and I'll be fine until the Law of Supply & Demand catches up. :-)


"RE: economy" -Plum Fri Jan 21 2005 15:16

I have to agree with Redbear and Livius. but I need to say something as well. James has done a superb job. I like this new system a lot.  Those items that I have put on the market are at low prices, this is 1. because I'm smart enough to know that multiple low sales will help more people than 1 large sale, and 2. because I'm not greedy. If I can just pick up an item from its hidden spot, or its an easy kill, I will keep the cost low. Items that have more value I put on the auction system. Also, I'd prefer to put too much on the market and remove near the time of
rebooting so that it remains available. As Livius said, GREED, is showing its ugly head. Better solution: raise your chr, be filthy rich.

"Harshness" -Cyberk Wed Jan 26 12:59

Ok I was a bit harsh the first time around. Let me clarify a few things. James, this is an excellent bit of work on your part, you deserve a medal for your work. I'm not trying to say its a bad system, I think capitalism on a MUD is a great idea, driving the player economy, blah blah blah.
My thing is that the shops should remain open as well. Look at this way, market allows you to compete with others, so he who sets the first price, essentially sets the bar. Now if you throw Taylor's prices into the mix, you can bet that people will price things in the buyable range knowing that Taylor has it cheaper.
Taylor would essentially be the benchmark. I don't think we need all the shops but to the same end we need some kind of starting point to keep the crap off there and what is there at a reasonable price. I can see it now 'A Dried Stick' value 5 coins market price 60000.  Just out of sarcasm, someone (not pointing fingers), will end up doing it.  So there needs to be a checks and balances thing... maybe even a comparison system where when you look at the item on the market it lists the resell value as compared to what they are asking for it.  Example: This cloak resembles the night sky, stars and all, blah blah.

Value 50 coins Price 2000 coins.
Something like that. Just a thought, Cyberk.

"RE: Harshness" -Hephaestus Wed Jan 26 2005 21:52

Over time the players will realize that some items just won't sell for a certain price. Players will have to refuse prices that seem to be to high and/or pay a little more than you normally would for an item. You could always go get it for yerself or get it and set yer own price. Something running for 30k won't sell well against the same item for 20k less. Just needs some time to 'settle'.
f Taylor!

"market" -Belphegor Mon Jan 31 2005 07:58

I just love the market. From my point of view listing 'resell prices' isn't really neccisarry.. Kinda feel that it will undermine the market system )
still.. there is a lot of useless equip to skyrocketing prices, but then I just gotta be smart.. get the same equip myself and sell it for a lower value. Just to make sure I get the sale.
when the hardend leather jerkin and leggins is the armour in discussion.. I need it to... and I'm not nearly BS enough to get it myself
) but NO WAY I'm paying 25K a piece.. so whoever selling this stuff that expensive... KEEP IT!
and when I get BS enough to grab that equip I'm going to start selling it for.. 5-10K a piece... but thats a sometime in the far future

AT last, thank you james for implementing such a feature. Makes the economy much more interesting. (and more open for fighting/discussing - I like fighting better though)


"RE: market" -Jimmie Mon Jan 31 2005 08:20

Indeed Thanks James :D